What happened to Save As?

>2. NEW Save-As on Apple OSX Mountain Lion = Closes your original document at your CURRENT EDIT + opens a new document with your current edits in the same folder + prompts you for a name for this new document.

Thank you Steve for your effort,

however, my wife says I 'm daft, but I don't understand what you mean by:

"Closes your original document at your CURRENT EDIT + ..."

Does this mean when I open one of my documents, then I edit it, and when I choose ML Save As the original doc. will be closed (by Apple, the new OS, - a pun here-) without ? this new edit, which will be there on a "a new document with your current edits."?

/

Omar

(Why make something simple, when it can be done in a screwed way!)

Omar,

Please read Kurt Lang's earlier comments. He explains it clearly. I am working from him comments. What happens is that the "new" Save-As" updates the file it saves and closes to the version when you pressed Save-As. That is you now have two identical documents just as you had with Duplicate. The original Save-As (still used by a few billion Windows users) closed your original file without updating the original document. Therefore it was the file when you last saved it.

If you opened a file and worked on it for 30 minutes, then pressed Save-As the original Save-As left your original file unchanged. It created a new file with the 30 minutes of work. Now the new Save-As will update your original file to include the 30 minutes of work, then closes it, plus it creates a new file identical to the one it just saved. That is the same process as Duplicate, except now it points you at the same folder as the original file for saving this new file. Duplicate points you at the desktop. So it is really a Relative-File-Location Duplicate, not a Save-As as we know it.

I will give you a scenario. You have a 10 page document called "10 Steps" with the 10 steps of your business plan, 2 pages per step. You want to share 3 of those steps with a client, and keep 7 secret. In the past you opened the original document, deleted 7 steps, pressed Save-As and saved the 3 page updated file with a new name, maybe "Client John Smith Presentation". It would be in the same folder as the original file. Now using ML Save-As you open the 10 page document called "10 Steps" and delete 7 steps. You press Save-As and save the 3 page file with a new name. The original file called "10 Steps" is now the same as the 3 page file you just saved. Your original 10 page document is hidden inside the Versions date. To retrieve it you need to open the original file, select the versions menu, review the past versions, deduce which was the original document, then select that. The work flow is the same as Duplicate, the problem is the same, and the familiar Save-As is now doing the very thing people asked that it stopped doing. If your versions folder crashes or you are working on a shared server, the original 10 page document is lost.

This is a complete fiasco because the Save-As workflow has been the same for 30 years and now they changed it in a fundamental way without telling anyone but rather pretending that they have brought it back as it was. Insanity.

Steve.

This is a complete fiasco because the Save-As workflow has been the same for 30 years and now they changed it in a fundamental way without telling anyone but rather pretending that they have brought it back as it was. Insanity.

Yep

It would have been better to have not have acted like they had given it back to us rather than change it in such a fundamental way that the unknowing will lose data.

Look, it's not that hard, and I came here looking for a solution. Also I have come only recently from Windows, which as an engineer I still use for work. And there are things like the lack of a backspace key, and the lack of "Saveas" and the simple windows file structure that drove me crazy, still does.

But, in "Pages" and Mountain Lion at least, open your document, press "duplicate," which is really just a mac word for "Saveas." Done I have no doubt simply to be different to windows.

The duplicate document opens with a blued title "copy of" name which can be immediately changed, just as you would with "Saveas." The only thing, and it is a big thing, is that I do not get the windows file/directory movement option that comes with "saveas." Feedback welcome on this point.

Even I can do it Just think "duplicate as ..... duplicate as ...... duplicate as." Resistance is futile!

JCSheepdog wrote:

But, in "Pages" and Mountain Lion at least, open your document, press "duplicate," which is really just a mac word for "Saveas." Done I have no doubt simply to be different to windows.

But Duplicate and Save As aren't the same thing at all; that's the crux of the problem and the whole reason for this garganuan thread. Mac users have had Save As all the back to the earliest days of the OS (before Windows existed), but it has been taken away. Look back over some of the previous posts which explain the difference.

Donnie,

I am sure you are right, and while I symphise with the disenfranchised Mac users and the loss of their apparent historic perogative, but really I dont care.

If I can open a document, and rename it and edit it as necessary in the same number of easy steps, it quacks like a duck. And, if it quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck ......😉

JCSheepdog wrote:

Donnie,

I am sure you are right, and while I symphise with the disenfranchised Mac users and the loss of their apparent historic perogative, but really I dont care.

Well, Sheep...welcome to the world of all the Mac apologists that go way back in this thread. I love your philosophy, which so perfectly matches theirs: "This change doesn't affect MY workflow, so why should I give a **** about how it affects anyone else's?" Very generous of you.

If I can open a document, and rename it and edit it as necessary in the same number of easy steps, it quacks like a duck. And, if it quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck ......😉

Of course, your case isn't helped by the fact that you don't know what the **** you're talking about, either. You have no clue as to how Save As is actually used in the real world of productive computing. And you obviously have no clue that Duplicate takes SIX steps to achieve the same result that Save As accomplishes in TWO steps.

That's one very mutant duck you're pulling along behind you on a string. Best of luck to you.

Hello JCSheepdog,

the problem (to me) is not the newly duplicated/saved as file.

The huge issue here is the original file that should NOT be saved until I say so.

Imagine you open the file, work on it, save it with another name.

With the good old Save As the original file is not touched.

With the new Duplicate, Autosave and Version crap the old file is saved with the changes you only wanted to have in the new one. Unless you lock the file before changing and duplicating it, but then it is a useless workflow complication...

As I already said, I removed all the applications supporting Autosave/Versions (including TextEdit and Preview) even if I'm still using Snow Leopard to get used to decent software only.

Cheers

S

Hardly a mac apologist, since I go back to the early '80's when DOS 6.2 on 5 1/4 floppys was hot news, and over the years more of a critic until I finally came to a MacBook pro for photraphy and non work use. I somehow manage to fly high level autocad, a bunch of FEA stuff and some pretty specialised NURBS modelling and ship stability stuff, so I cannot claim to be a complete idiot.

If I can solve my limited document control problems with "duplicate," that is a solution, be it a blasphemous one within the iGod temple. If others have other problems with "saveas" they will I am sure keep hunting down their own solution.

I promise not to bore you here with my issues about "Strand" and "Rhino."

Mutant or not, it is still a duck, Cheers, 😀

JCSheepdog wrote:

Hardly a mac apologist, since I go back to the early '80's when DOS 6.2 on 5 1/4 floppys was hot news, and over the years more of a critic until I finally came to a MacBook pro for photraphy and non work use. I somehow manage to fly high level autocad, a bunch of FEA stuff and some pretty specialised NURBS modelling and ship stability stuff, so I cannot claim to be a complete idiot.

OK, you're not a complete idiot...you're just rather full of yourself. Actually, you proved that with the tenor of your very first post ("Look, it's not that hard..."; "Even I can do it," etc.).

We didn't ask to be impressed with your credentials. The topic of this thread is the loss of Save As...something you've proven you know nothing about.

It would have been nice if you would have simply acknoweldged this once it had been proven — rather than imagining that dazzling us with your arcane knowledge of other subjects would work in its stead.

I promise not to bore you here...

Too late.

I am sorry, I mistakenly presumed that this forum was about getting help. I now understand that it is a sparring ground for people who spend far too much time in their basements.

You might, while doing whatever it is you do down there, take a minute to read your own etiquette guidelines.

Cheers

Typo corrected

JCSheepdog wrote:

I am sorry, I mistakenly presumed that this forum was about getting help. I now understand that it is a sparring ground for people who spend far too much time in their basements.

You might, while doing whatever it is you do down there, take a minute to read your own etiquette guidelines.

LOL! The guy who makes his first entrance into this thread by saying "Look, it's not that hard"...then continues with a very condescending tone to inform us that Duplicate is exactly the same as Save As (proving, as noted, that he has absolutely NO idea what he's talking about)...wants to lecture US about etiquette!

If you want "help," you might start by losing your air of superiority, and then you might find a nicer way to ask. And while you're at it, you might actually acknowledge your errors of both fact and attitude instead of ignoring them and hoping we won't notice. Until you do that, there's no way you'll be taken seriously here.

Nice try, by the way, with the "basement" comment. Beyond lame, but nice try.

This forum is about getting help resolving the issue of Save-As being replaced by the similar but not identical or better Duplicate, and then returning in an alternate form in Mountain Lion. Please read the carefully worded responses as to why Duplicate is not Save-As and why Duplicate has caused people to lose work. If your solution is "get over it" then please contact a user called Yvan Koneig about how your solution is the best solution in the world. He will love that.

Steve,

Thank you for the response. And thank you for the first calm and sensible response. Frankly I had no idea the minefield that this involved. Initially, like many immmigrants from MS baffled by the lack of a saveas, I read the posts, which dealt with the issue at a far more complex level than my concern. I then tried duplicate, it worked for my needs, which I suspect are limited compared to others, and I was pleased to have solved at least my own problem. Nor has it caused work to be lost, however your comment is well taken. My solution was never "get over it" but rather to express surprise that there appeared to be a deeper problem. Nor do I, or did I, claim it to be the best solution in the world, or any place other than appearing to answer my immediate problem.

From there on the responses rapidly degenerated to the puerile. I work in an isolated and non English speaking part of the Philippines and I participate in professional and special interest forums. They are my major contact means to the rest of the world.

Out of quite a long list, this is the only forum where I have seen this kind of childish lack of basic manners, and for it to be under the Apple logo and branding is not, I am sure, what Apple has in mind for their official help forum.

Yours respectfully,

John C

Typos corrected

JCSheepdog wrote:

Steve,

Thank you for the response. And thank you for the first calm and sensible response.

Wow, you still don't get it, do you?

Had your initial foray into this forum been "calm and sensible" (as opposed to arrogant and condescending), you would have found many people more than willing to help...myself included. Instead, you mocked those who (in your mind only) didn't "understand" Duplicate and sought to sarcastically "explain" it to us as if we were a bunch of dolts.

It takes a substantial amount of hubris, as a new Mac user, to assume this position. You got called on it, and now you want to make this someone else's fault besides your own.

Frankly I had no idea the minefield that this involved.

EXACTLY...you had no idea. When you speak knowingly and condescendingly from a position of complete ignorance, don't be surprised when you get some pushback. Your ignorance might have been alleviated if you had bothered to more carefully and patiently read some of the previous posts.

Initially, like many immmigrants from MS baffled by the lack of a saveas, I read the posts, which dealt with the issue at a far more complex level than my concern. I then tried duplicate, it worked for my needs, which I suspect are limited compared to others...

Hence my initial response to you...others' needs are not necessarily the same as yours. As your initial post makes clear, you assumed otherwise.

From there on the responses rapidly degenerated to the puerile.

If you're seeking the reasons behind this, look in the mirror.

Out of quite a long list, this is the only forum where I have seen this kind of childish lack of basic manners...

Mama apparently never taught you that manners is a two-way street.

Yours respectfully

It would appear you've added a new word to your vocabulary.