Logic 7.2.......Well I guess no posts = good news :-)

Yeah, Logic rocks, no question. If there were anything better out there I'd have switched to it by now. But then you wrote:

"There is nothing bug-wise in Logic that stops any pro from working......"

"........." = "fill in the blank?"

OK, I will: "twice as hard"

😉

Twice as hard than what?

"Twice as hard" as it would otherwise be if the program weren't so buggy.

Here are some examples...

- Having to re-do edits twice (or more) because a song gets corrupt mid-stream, causing the UNDO function to behavior strangely, at which point hitting UNDO one time un-does multiple previous edits...

- Key commands that don't work after you've already assigned them in the key command window (meaning that you have to find new key combinations that WILL invoke the desired function)

- Key commands that, when assigned for the first time and, invoked immediately after the assignment, cause Logic to crash.

- Paste at Original Position problems (MIDI) where sometimes the function works, but other times you must first add a blank region to the track (pencil tool) in order to perform the operation... (Proves you can't take anything for granted, eh?)

- Sometimes, adding text to markers generates error messages that ultimately prevent text from being entered. The only workaround is to delete all markers, start with a "clean slate", and then create them all over again before adding text...

- Going into record at bar 1, beat 1 and playing a little bit ahead of the beat will SOMETIMES -- not always but SOMETIMES -- cause the entire song to be shifted by 1 bar (at which point the sequence now starts at bar zero). When this happens, un-doing the recording removes the recording alright, but leaves the inserted bar at the top of the song.

Do you really want me to go on? This is only the tip of the iceberg...

This is an extraordinary list, iSchwartz. I have NEVER encountered ANY of the problems you've listed here. I'm sorry that you have. I cannot think what the solution might be to try to solve some of them. I'm sure you've tried reinstalling Logic etc. Perhaps there's some combination of screensets, windows or folders that you use in your working method that's causing this?

Here are some examples...

- Having to re-do edits twice (or more) because a
song gets corrupt mid-stream, causing the UNDO
function to behavior strangely, at which point
hitting UNDO one time un-does multiple previous
edits...

This has not happened to me and I use it for at least six hours everyday.

- Key commands that don't work after you've already
assigned them in the key command window (meaning that
you have to find new key combinations that WILL
invoke the desired function)

Again, this has not happened to me.

- Key commands that, when assigned for the first time
and, invoked immediately after the assignment, cause
Logic to crash.

Not happened here and I have a long established set of KC's that are constantly being added to.

- Paste at Original Position problems (MIDI) where
sometimes the function works, but other times you
must first add a blank region to the track (pencil
tool) in order to perform the operation... (Proves
you can't take anything for granted, eh?)

Not an issue here at all.

- Sometimes, adding text to markers generates error
messages that ultimately prevent text from being
entered. The only workaround is to delete all
markers, start with a "clean slate", and then create
them all over again before adding text...

Never encountered this.

- Going into record at bar 1, beat 1 and playing a
little bit ahead of the beat will SOMETIMES -- not
always but SOMETIMES -- cause the entire song to be
shifted by 1 bar (at which point the sequence now
starts at bar zero). When this happens, un-doing the
recording removes the recording alright, but leaves
the inserted bar at the top of the song.

Ok, can't say I have ever recorded at bar one. I always tend to be starting at bar 4 or 5. Just something I have always done. So, never encountered this problem.

Do you really want me to go on? This is only the tip
of the iceberg...

I know that this is only the tip of the berg in your case, but I must say that I have never had any issues with those that you mentioned.
I have had other little issues, but I am happily working with LogicPro and have not seen a better alternative.

People have mentioned that they think that Logic is suffering at the hands of Apple, but I have to beg to differ. There are so many new time saving workflow features, that the product has never been better.... and they are always making it work better.

However, I know that none of this is going to inspire you opinion to change. That's ok, but until you find something better, I guess you're stuck with it.

To Michael and Matrixxx,

Michael: Glad to hear you've never encountered any of these things. And re solutions, I'm at a loss myself. I have tried re-installing Logic/trashing prefs/creating new autoload song, all the usual stuff. None of this seems to help. Most recently, during one bout of "Logic Behaving Badly" I decided to clean up (consolidate) multiple MIDI parts playing the same MIDI module/channel, stuff like that, and then, perform a re-organize memory function. Doing these things seemed to cleared up a lot of problems, but only temporarily.

I've given a lot of thought to my work methods and how they may somehow impinge on Logic's stability. There are two things that I do which may be somewhat unconventional (but are all "legal"):

1. My key command set utilizies almost none of the standard Logic conventions for key commands. Here's a very very brief list:

esc = close window
F1 = event editor
F2 = matrix editor
F3 = score editor
Return = Stop
Space = Stop/Play
Tab = Record
A = Catch

2. I don't often actually go into RECORD to record MIDI parts. For example, I'll play a part, and if I like what I played I invoke the "Capture" function (in my case, the "!" ). At that point the data gets put into the track. Saves a whole lot of undoing/erasing.

I've been working with Logic this way for about 10 years, in which time I've worked on many many hundreds of projects, scores, world tours, etc. So I'm an old hand at this program. I also have a reputation for working at extremely fast speeds on Logic. It's an extension of my body.

And if any of these working methods of mine are causing the problems I'm experiencing, then it can't be "my fault" -- my work methods and techniques are (and have been) based on Logic's extant feature set.

I'm a pretty observant guy. I see patterns easily. I'd like to think that after all this time working on Logic I'd find a pattern of actions that led to each of the various errant behaviors. But I haven't.

Mattrixx: I sense that you think my opinon of Logic shouldn't be so "negative". Actually, my opinion of Logic isn't so negative at all. After all, it's the only program I've used to make my living with for the past 10 years. I typically work between 10 and 14 hours a day. And I have sooooo many better things to be doing with my time than relating stories of bogus behavior in Logic. I'm truly glad that you haven't experienced these bugs. But they do exist. Just because you don't experience them doesn't mean they don't exist. You just haven't run into them because your "workflow" must be different from mine.

And the errant behavior I'm experiencing is not unique to my computer. My writing partner's computer is exactly the same as mine (bought at the same time) and I have the same (if not more) problems on his system. I'm not doing anything that the Logic manual says I can't do in order to operate Logic. So what's the cause of the problems? Hard to nail down...

But let's say that my operating method is somehow causing Logic to break. Certainly that's not my doing -- it's the fault of the programming.

Until these behaviors get examined and fixed, I can't possibly change my opinion or accept that Logic's programming has the integrity I'd otherwise hope for.

And in the meantime I continue to use Logic. I couldn't imagine working in DP or PT. That should say something.

G5, dual 2.7G, 2.5G RAM Mac OS X (10.4.3) LP7.1.1, MOTU 424/2408/1224 x 2

My experience is the same as mattrixx. There are small annoying bugs but nothing that has really slowed me down much. Logic has been very reliable for me and its flexibility suits my working method perfectly. As a professional I wouldn't be using it otherwise.

I agree with you iSchwartz there is one example I would like to share
to make an arpeggiator you must go to the enviroment make an arpeggiator object then wire that to a virtual instrument, then turn cycle mode on, then press play and only THEN can you hear the arpeggiator in action!!!! What is that!!! Go to Cubase, Live, Sonar, etc. they ALL have MIDI FX plug ins!!!
and it is MUUUUCCCHHH easier to assign and do!!! usually 2 clicks and no looping and pressing play and nonsense! I REALLY hope Apple does something about this! If Logic is truly the lord of MIDI it is stuff like this that makes it lack.
I say this not to be negative as Logic is ALMOST perfect to me but jeez I just really hope they do something like the script processor in Native Instruments Kontakt 2 and open that up to developers or us better yet!!!

iSchwartz.
I also don't use many of Logic's default key commands but have an extensive list that I've built up over the years. I also use the capture function when recording MIDI so I guess it's not anything to do with those two..;) My working method uses folders for easier organization and every screenset is one of these folders open with an Arrange, a track mixer and a Matrix or Sample Editor depending whether it's MIDI or Audio, specific to that folder. There are Folder inconsistencies but they've been around so long, I'm used to them. There are a thousand working methods I'm sure and it probably isn't anything to do with them but who knows. I just hope you can get to the bottom of your problems soon..:)

Glad to know of someone else who uses the capture function, and who doesn't use the standard key command set. Very glad. I'd really love to be able to rule these out as potential culprits. You're giving me hope here!

I must admit that I still have a hard time adopting the use of screensets. I use just one... I have key commands to bring up the mixer page, etc. etc. etc. And I love folders (and I'm glad that there's at least one thing my DP friends are envious of in Logic!). I go back and forth between using them (to keep things neat) or just having stuff splattered all over the screen 🙂 My only problem with folders is the unpacking/non-muted muted track thing. Otherwise, they're my friend!

I just hope you can get to the bottom of your problems soon..:)

Thank you kindly! Cheers!

kendrick,

Yeah, having to cable things like arpeggiators seems a little kludgey "these days", even to a guy like me who has synth roots going back to the days of modular analog synths. But there's a part of me that enjoys patching things together to make them work. I still have my modular Oberheim 2-voice (very custom job) and an MS-20 (Legacy). So to me patching is kinda fun. But I can see that if you're doing a lot of arpeggiation and MIDI delay stuff in Logic that it could get tedious after a while. Tedious, yes, but buggy, no.

Everone has a different workflow, speed, key command set, etc. So some bugs they experience can often be particular to their system only. This makes the bugfixing by Apple/Emagic so much harder to implement.

Mattrixx: I sense that you think my opinon of Logic
shouldn't be so "negative". Actually, my opinion of
Logic isn't so negative at all. After all, it's the
only program I've used to make my living with for the
past 10 years. I typically work between 10 and 14
hours a day. And I have sooooo many better things to
be doing with my time than relating stories of bogus
behavior in Logic. I'm truly glad that you haven't
experienced these bugs. But they do exist. Just
because you don't experience them doesn't mean they
don't exist. You just haven't run into them because
your "workflow" must be different from mine.

And the errant behavior I'm experiencing is not
unique to my computer. My writing partner's computer
is exactly the same as mine (bought at the same time)
and I have the same (if not more) problems on his
system. I'm not doing anything that the Logic manual
says I can't do in order to operate Logic. So what's
the cause of the problems? Hard to nail down...

But let's say that my operating method is somehow
causing Logic to break. Certainly that's not my doing
-- it's the fault of the programming.

Until these behaviors get examined and fixed, I can't
possibly change my opinion or accept that Logic's
programming has the integrity I'd otherwise hope
for.

Believe me when I say, I totally understand your frustration and understand your level of expertise.
It is insteresting that you also use the Capture last take command in lieu of rec a lot aswell. Also, many of the key commands that I use are definitely out of the norm. For example, I use esc as record. F1,2&3 as my zoom levels. Control esc as rec toggle on/off for tracks etc.

Have you tried swapping out ram? It might sound a bit far fetched, but this has caused crazier things for me in the past, even when it all seems to pass tests and other monitoring processes.
It sounds like you have tried everything else, could be worth a try, as you describe things going pear shaped after a length of time. This could be a RAM utilization issue.

I truly feel your pain. There are a number of things that frustrate me, however, at the moment, none of those things take the program out. I have experienced that in the past and it frustrates to no end, especially as a dealine approaches.

here are some guaranteed bonafide bugs that will happen on any system cross my heart, hope to die, spit in my hand.

1. In large productions, moving score markings in the score editor with the mouse will cause the logic to hang for as much as 15 seconds. it is totally dependant on the size of the project. the bigger it is the longer it gets.

2. Inserting multibar rests in parts will cause unexpected and incorrect display of double barlines and time signatures in the score or score subsets.

3. beat groupings do not work properly and never have, despite what it says in the manual. irregular meters will work provded that they are simple and in quaver subdivisions. anything more complex than 2 groupings does not display in the groupings the user specifies. 6/8 time does not display beat groupings correctly.

4. double value or anything more than double value tuplets do not display correctly.

5. you will get unexpected and incorrect display of beaming across the bar lines in polyphonic score styles.

and i have many more, but i have to go.

these will and do happen on every system guaranteed and most were acknowledged by emagic.

you guys on the forum may not use score very much but i can assure you logic is used by nearly 100% of pros working in film and tv business in europe and we use it all the time - and have to put up with these bugs as part of our professional lives. i personally think that is outrageous.

problem is most of these guys don't visit forums so there is no-one moaning to apple (or emagic). that's why i'm here, and by gum i haven't even begun to moan - by gum.

Mmmm, I don't use the score editor, unless I have to do a quick print for a session player.

Intereting that you say that many of the scoring pros don't subscribe to the various forums out there. I can certainly vouch for that. I know a whole lotta people who, firstly, dont really get into the tech, beyond what they have to. Totally understandable..... but I think this is where many of us have to encourage them, to show how they can get their problems achknowledged, or at least communicate them to us, the people that do associate with the forums.