I JUST, 9 July 13, bought Logic Pro... Any change Apple will allow for some type of upgrade to Pro X, since we had NO Fore Knowledge of its release...

minor update to my items:

i bought logic pro 9 on the 27th june..

went to holiday on the 1st july and came back on the 22nd.. july..

to the point court: the legal laws are different in countries and not all the terms are legal which are stated in these itune terms as it is already mentioned within these.

This is exaclty the same with the licence. yes it is possible to sell every software in the european union despite what is written in any condition from a manufacturer. There are severyl legal court decisions on this in the meantime that there is no big discussion about this.

if you see the application links within the software now pointing to the new version

i personally see this as an update and fix of the previous release and not as a new application with a X at the end.

I appreciate that apple sees this different but this is exactly one issue a court should have an eye on.

Ah okay.. your dates now make more sense. Thanks!

As for the legal stuff... I described your current legal standing. What may or may not change in the future will probably have no impact on you. .. and frankly the cost to you to 'fight' this legally wouldprobably be beyond your 'means' as if it wasn't, you wouldn't be here complaining about the extra and relative 'small cost' of Logic Pro X...

I know, in reality... you are more likely to be just 'beating your drum' because you are annoyed at what happened.. but the reality of your situation is what i was trying to point out to you.

Seriously, you probably have the sympathy of many here.. but you agreed to to the terms and conditions.. and as i said, there is nothing wrong with the product you bought. If you feel Logic Pro X is worth buying in addition to Logic Pro 9.... at it's current cost to you.. then do so.. and if not don't. You still have a really good DAW that many, including myself, will carry on using for sometime into the future... and when you have had your use of Logic Pro 9 and you want some of ther new features in Logic Pro X, then go and purchase it.

There is no rush you know... You don't have to have the 'latest and greatest' if indeed that is what Logic Pro X is.. and honestly, I'm not so sure myself it is.... In many ways i prefer Logic Pro 9... and I may well carry on feeling that way until LPX has matured and a few more new features are added to it... If you cannot get a refund, start using Logic Pro 9 and learn and get used to it.. The differences between LP9 and LPX are not that great in reality.... just mainly a few tweaks here and there, some GUI upgrades.. and couple of good feature updates..and some new instrument presets and loops.. The changes are nice to have.. but essential? No.. not in my opinion.

This is just my opinion of coure.. yours and others may be different

Cheers!

"but you agreed to to the terms and conditions.. and as i said, there is nothing wrong with the product you bought. "

I have to weigh-in here, as I believe there could be some legally dubious facets of this. True about all points regarding the t&c - I definitely e-signed it - but it doesn't mean that their t&c are completely devoid of illegality.

Markets are regulated for this type of behavior across a lot of industries. If big construction companies were spending millions of dollars on equipment that was deemed outdated the next day with no warning (i.e. there is a newer, better version that will last longer) - I'll bet there would be a big lawsuit if no discount was granted. If no lawsuit, it'd definitely be considered a betrayal of trust and there would be an impactful resolution against the offending company. Most companies wouldn't do this beacause it's.... BAD FOR BUSINESS -- unless they can get away with it or the victims are insignificant enough.

Apple knows this is a low-dollar product that most people bought ages ago. It's an intentionally deceitful policy to squeeze as many $200s out of potential users as possible. Apple - in my dealings with them anyway - has always been about "hardware over software". That is, the software is just a means to make people buy hardware. Which I think is an OK policy considering how happy most have been - including myself - in dealing with Apple's products.

This is changing quite a bit, however, with the introduction of the rigid, policy-driven App Store. It's an incredibly profitable practice to sell tons of licenses for something that has little production costs. This is clearly being demonstrated in their new policies, and I wouldn't be surprised if iTunes, Automator and Calculator had a price tag on it in the coming years that you have to re-buy with each new operating system. Remember iMovie and Garageband?

There is absolutely no reason to defend a corporation the size of Apple. If what they are doing is morally wrong - which you admitted - it doesn't excuse their practice, regardless of the legality. Apple should revise this policy and rectify their recent reputation with their professional userbase.

I'm not boycotting Apple or trying to be some crazy ranting guy, but I passionately believe that this is a dispicable policy. I've been foaming at the mouth with anger ever since this new version came out, and the anger only intensified dealing with Customer Support - who is much less knowledgable, and much more finger-pointing, than they used to be.

Soon to be updated software should carry a 90-day window - IMO of course:

90 days out - No product announcement, upgrades to be given to customers upon release.

60 days out - Product Announcement (optional), CURRENT VERSION PULLED FROM APP STORE (important)

30 days out - Balls to the wall promo about the new version (optional), leading up to Product's Launch.

Or work out some versioned pricing for Pro Software... $199 for only this version, $299 for this + next version, $100 upgrades for life... SOMETHING.

These are all very logical policies that Apple could easily institute - and, most importantly - AFFORD. Why leave a bad taste in your customers' mouths? Why not have them all jazzed up to spend $6k on a new Mac Pro? This culture of fear around buying outdated products will definitely come back to bite Apple... or not.

Whatever. You can't fight city hall, right?

Even more steamed right now seeing that portential Final Cut Pro customers are getting a warning:

I searched for some message like this before purchasing, found nothing. What a disgrace and unequal treatment of the audio industry.

It doesn't say that new version of FC will be a paid one. There have been a bunch of free updates to FC that have added features, and that upcoming one may be free as well.

While an official grace period would be nice (and longer than 30 days would be nice as well although some audio apps are longer and some shorter) it seems a bit ridiculous to call Apple "intentionally deceitful" and expect them to adhere to some rule that no software developer or any company in any other line of business follows.

And even if they did have a grace period, there are still people who bought just outside of that who still complain.

Mike Connelly wrote:

... that no software developer or any company in any other line of business follows.

That is the problem!. This is not the case and building up a defense strategy on wrong facts is exactly what to blame to apple too. They just ignore complains.. Customer service told me that they cannot fix anything as they are not allowed to do this and as there was nothing remaining to discuss they closed the case and told me that they will not any longer react on this case.

what an arrogant behavour..

I guess that apple just thinks.. : okay.. these 20 - 200 users who bought in the last month, we will annoy them.. what a fun this will be..

we can even read the blogs and support threats with popcorn and beer.

a gracefull period is nothing for free, by the way, it is just a way to continue the sales while sometimes the customer things, why not wait for the next release..

no information is something which could work as the end-users did not know

but if rumor of such a behaviour gets spread the end-users will act and decide to wait..

which we know has been one of the ruin of apple in the past..

Just to give some further insight into why Apple stopped making refunds and why their policy is not to issue refunds....

I spoke with an old friend over the weekend who, unknown to me, had in the last year become a Customer Service Manager (App Store) for Apple in the UK. He spoke 'off the record' to me about what happened and why and as best as i can, I'll try and give everyone the 'short and sweet' version according to him.

Initially some Customer Service Reps (CSRs) issued refunds to people who bought Logic Pro within a 30 day timeframe prior to the launch date of Logic Pro X, if the Customer called them or emailed them pleading their case.

A few days later the CS managers all received a clarification of App Store Policy in regards to this issue. This notice clearly stated no more refunds were to be issued under any circumstances in regards to the purchase of LP9 prior to the release date of LPX and anyone found issuing or approving such refunds would be disciplined.

The reason given was that issuing refunds under such circumstances, would set a legal precedent which, while it might appear to be simply a 'one time event' and a 'good thing to do under the circumstances" could and would likely lead to all kinds of legal issues further down the road with other Apps and similar situations arising in the future.

The App store is a very different form of business model and to a degree I can see why Apple would have to put their legal 'foot' down because of the way business is done via the App Store.

It is also akin to trying to buy a physical item of software from say Amazon.. opening it.. using it.. and then trying to return it a few days later.. for their money back or an exchange for something else. ..for whatever reason. None of the online stores allow this any longer.. for obvious reasons. People used/abused this facility to pirate software and so eventually everyone stopped refunds once the software had been 'unsealed and/or used.

Download only software companies have also taken the same stand for pretty much the same reasons.. so Apple isn't alone and in fact, this is the norm for the industry these days.

Its interesting to note too, that he claimed (and I have no reason to disbelieve him) he and his "team' were first notified about the release of LPX at the end of the day prior to the release date. In other words they had no advance warning at all of note. He said he believed that for some unknown reason, the decision to release LPX on that specific date was taken at the last moment as normally they get about 4-7 days advance notice when a major Apple Software item will be released. This did not happen in the case of LPX and he did not know why.

Note: I personally think anyone who bought LP9 within 30 days of the release of LPX should get a refund.. but that isn't going happen any longer from what I know or believe.

So.. either carry on using the product you bought.. (LP9) which is still a great DAW and to be honest, the differences between LP9 and LPX aren't that great.. though for some people, nice to have... or... switch to a different DAW if you feel Apple aren't to be trusted... ( and pay more money for the privilage) or purchase LPX (Now or later) if you think the new features in LPX are worth the purchase price. After all it's not like LP9 has suddenly stopped working or is not supported....and LP9 is still the DAW of choice for many users... Professionals or Amateurs

.

is this gossip

or are you working for apple?

nevertheless the discussion always will be moved to areas which are not under discussion at all:

no one will be a refund: I just want to have LPx as i have paid about 180 euro just a view days too early.

That isn't too complicate to understand and all these strange arguments about refund and test and copy and whatsoever is just a distraction.

clearly the support of LP9 is over! What do you believe.. that apple will support the old version... haha..

blame you naiv! even the links in the software are ending up on the webpage of apple's latest LPx page!

has anone ever seen an update of photoshop 4 after the release of photoshop 5..

what a shame to bring in this argument..

blame on you.. for such a stupid argument..

kawahh wrote:

Mike Connelly wrote:

... that no software developer or any company in any other line of business follows.

This is not the case

What is not the case?

TAOS, I can see why they wouldn't want to set the precedent of giving refunds. But there's nothing stopping them from doing a grace period that gives recent buyers within a certain period a free upgrade, that's how most software companies handle it. Of course then you get the debates that the grace period is too short, and the complaints from people who just missed the grace period.

I assume their main reason is because they have a blanket policy of no refunds, grace period (or upgrade discount) for anything on the app store and they don't want to complicate things by making an exception. But if they really wanted to, they could. The app store doesn't even support paid upgrades, it's not an option for developers, correct?

Hi

The Art Of Sound wrote:

I spoke with an old friend over the weekend who, unknown to me, had in the last year become a Customer Service Manager (App Store) for Apple in the UK. He spoke 'off the record' to me about what happened and why and as best as i can, I'll try and give everyone the 'short and sweet' version according to him.

Given the detail in your post, I wonder if

a) your 'old friend' still works at Apple subsequent to your post

b) you will continue to have "off the record" conversations, if he does

8-0

CCT

The Art Of Sound wrote:

Just to give some further insight into why Apple stopped making refunds and why their policy is not to issue refunds....

Thanks for that...

Similar to the explanation I got from a long-time Apple developer, the precedent being: The Logic 9 user getting a refund to purchase Logic 10 could technically/legally own both version 9 and 10 while having paid for only one, a situation that violates several App store policies. As I recall, Logic 9 users getting a refund were asked to delete the L9 application from their system. Well, maybe but I seriously doubt that would happen across the board.

CCTM wrote:

Hi

Given the detail in your post, I wonder if

a) your 'old friend' still works at Apple subsequent to your post

b) you will continue to have "off the record" conversations, if he does

Hi CCT,

I had much the same thought so...

I actually sent him a copy of my post before I put it up.. just in case and he ok'ed it.... I guess there are quite a number of "managers'.... or he just didn't give a ........

HI Pancenter,

Yes... I feel you would be correct... given how many people have been 'found' to be also using "illegal' version of Plugins etc too...

..and as i think I mentioned in one of my early posts on this issue, at least one client of mine, as far as I can recall, was 'instructed' to delete his LP9 as part of the 'refund' process...

As an aside..... the bit of the conversation with my 'old friend' that struck me most.. was the lack of the normal advance notice he got as to LPX's release date. I find that 'really odd'.... and it makes me wonder why that would have been so? Any thoughts?

Mike Connelly wrote:

TAOS, I can see why they wouldn't want to set the precedent of giving refunds. But there's nothing stopping them from doing a grace period that gives recent buyers within a certain period a free upgrade, that's how most software companies handle it. Of course then you get the debates that the grace period is too short, and the complaints from people who just missed the grace period.

Well, to me that the problem with 'grace periods' is as you stated.. in as much as you are always going to frustrate someone.. be it the person who bought something 1 day too late for a 30 day period.. or 1 day late for a 60 day period... and so on. You are never going to be able to satisfy everyone.. and there will always be some people who will complain no matter what the circumstances..

The app store doesn't even support paid upgrades, it's not an option for developers, correct?

As far as I am aware, that is correct Mike... It's been a 'bone of contention' for several App developers over the years both on the Mac and IOS App stores.. but again, that is the policy/system that Apple set up.. for whatever reason.

What most of the Devs do, as you probably know.. is drop the price of the new version for everyone for the first, say week after release and then raise the price up afterwards.. for everyone.

I understand that Apple doesn't actually approve (though it's within the App Store "Guidelines' so they dont stop it) of such initial time frame discounts because even then you get (and the CSR's get for that matter) the "I missed the sale price by 1 day" group.. that complain just as loud and as often....

You just can't win them all...... 🙂

never ever wants someone to win it all!

that is just a strange argument..

if you have used something one month or even more..

you have used it.. it is not new..

I have bought the software and had run it just to see if it is running..

in fact never used the software a single day.. and no i am cut from any support of this version 9..

strange discussion about the inability of apple to provide an upgrade functionality which will disable the
old software. NO, we do not suggest that apple reinvents the wheel. Looking around is enough and you will find hundred of companies who manages this.

i gues because of the loss of financial profit of the company they are now starting to squeeze everything out of the consumers in the current quarter to pretend innovation and success. In fact this version x is not a real functional step, but a support release and what they are doing is
they block all users using lp9 since 2009 from this support release and asks for another 180 euro.. pund dollar, whatsoever..

of course they can do it.. without a doubt and there is nothing to discuss about precedent or someting like this.. this is a matter of fairness!