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Level 7

20,924 points

Pismo new battery flashing light then dead

Greetings.

The relatively new battery (after-market M7318) in my PB Pismo suddenly misbehaved and died. I say died, but I dont believe it! Here's the timeline of events.

I normally operate the PB with AC cord. Battery indicator in MenuBar always shows 'plugged' icon & 100% (or very close to it).

Yesterday night, rather than Shut Down, I simply closed the Clam to put the PB to sleep.

This morning at 05:30, a storm passed through, Thunder awoke me and lo, the power went out. Called the power company to report the outage, but shortly after hanging up, the power came back on. Only stayed out for about 10 minutes.

All the while, PB seemed to be sleeping peacefully, sleep indicator light pulsing gently.

Being awake now, after making coffee, I opened the PB, logged in from sleep, and noticed the time of 06:11 and that the MenuBar battery indicator was 'plugged' and at 97%. Having a smoldering question at YahooAnswers, opened browser to that site.

THIS is when I noticed that the lights ON the Battery where not normal (I am used to seeing them all alight). When I noticed it there was ONE light, blinking.

Observing the MenuBar battery indicator, it read 0% !! So... from 97% to 0% in minutes seeming wrong to me, I Clicked the MenuBar battery indicator icon which indicated (greyed out) "Calculating... until full". Looked back at the lights on the battery, still with one light blinking. Don't have a reason, but I then removed the battery, observing the light blinking more closely, the light went out!

Inserted the battery back in the bay, above state the same - 0%, "Calculating...until full". Unplugged the AC and PB goes off - no wonder, no battery with juice! Plugged AC back in and Started Up normally with no ill effects observed.

The above remains the state of the PB & battery.

Started the quest for help by coming here.

After much reading of not so "similar" articles, I am convinced that trying this, then that is futile without expert advice. Just too many variables and procedures to make a judgement about what to follow.

FYI, I have used System Profiler to verify that the battery can be and is detected. Battery = Yes -> remove battery -> Refresh -> Battery = No -> insert battery -> Refresh -> Battery = Yes.

I realize that there will be many bits of info needed to help determine the "State of the PowerBooK". I await inquiry for specifics.

As I said in the beginning, I am not convinced that the battery is the problem. It all happened TOO FAST. Not having spare batteries laying around as I used to in my RoadRunner days, swapping out batteries for a test is not possible.

I am really good at following precedures and documenting things, so Occams's Razor to Calculus seems like a plan.

BTW, everything BUT this seems normal.

Thanx in advance for the Help

CCC aka J Jordan

PowerBook, Mac OS X (10.4.11), G3/500-FireWire, 512MbRAM, 40Gb

Posted on Jun 9, 2014 12:39 PM

29 replies

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Jun 28, 2014 8:50 PM in response to K Shaffer

K, you said in part:

Appears that if your Pismo were equipped with Dual Batteries (?) the battery life would

be extended; and the Battery gauge software you have that suggests a Left/Right cell

would show the 'other' battery and its progress; or lack there of. The modular bays are

the reason why there could be two batteries.

A primary battery - several years old - may be used up.

And a battery by some third-party maker or source may

be of dubious quality or shorter life than original quality.

...

And the PRAM battery, once it fails to retain a charge, can inhibit a computer's ability to

boot up. In the PowerBook Pismo G3, according to LowEndMac article from years ago,

you could unplug the PRAM battery if it were dead, to enable booting; but settings are

going to be way off and date/day wrong, too. So the file system then may be affected.

...
•PowerBook Pismo won't charge - google...

Dual Batteries = don't HAVE two - just the capability.

the DVD drive comes out and the bay can then be used for 2nd battery. Yes I have tried the battery in that bay without no apparent difference in the amount of time I dedicated to that ecperiment.

PRAM battery = no ill effects regarding Pismo's operation, at all. Zapped the PRAM several times just for goof measure early on.

google = where I started this whole journey. I have not found anything remotely close to this behavior with a whole variety of keywords. Been googlin a long time.

2 bits of good news...

Attempt to mimic 2nd power outage - pretty sure of methodology - yielded nothing abnormal. XBattery showed no anomalies and battery retained previous charge and continues to trickle charge.

I have made email contact with XBattery author. He replied "The red lines indicate that XBattery was not able to collect any data for a period of time, either because the laptop was shut down or asleep. Any chance the outage happened during a thunderstorm and your Pismo could have gotten a voltage spike?"

I was mistaken when I assumed that XBattery was communicationg with the battery's microprocessor.

I replied and hope he can add some insight after maybe lookin at his thread. He's gotta have a pretty good handle on the guts under the hood.

... the road goes on forever, and the party never ends. - Joe Ely

CCC

K Shaffer

Level 7

34,996 points

Jun 30, 2014 9:23 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

The possibility of a 'voltage spike' when electronic products are attached to the mains

grid without a buffer or filter device (UPS or power conditioning battery backup inline)

is always something to consider and prevent. I've used a few brands of retail UPS

with most of my computers over several years, and never trust 'surge protectors' as

a means to protect anything. I've yet to hear satisfactory reports from users of those

whose computers were toast, of a payment by the companies involved, as restitution

for their loss of computer due to surge. Some products offer a 'guaranty' of a sort.

Some of these UPS devices flat out fail, and at times absorb the power jolt; those

are not repairable models and so you can't tell if they are going to work at all. The

life of the backup battery is also a factor in protection and time allows you if present

to manually shut down applications and save work otherwise lost. Even without a

companion set of software installed in a vintage product, the backup power supply

or uninterruptible power supply, can be used to fair advantage to protect electronics.

There may be an issue with some circuitry on Pismo logic board due to such a shock,

though a portable computer has a buffer of a sort in the ability of the voltage adapter

to compensate somewhat with a fluctuation of input voltage (to a limited degree) so

as to act like a surge protector in a few circumstances. So if the logic board and other

circuits outside of the charging path were affected, that may be an involved repair to

diagnose. A qualified specialist who does complete diagnostics of these vintage Macs

could be able to offer service and advice on this kind of repair.

Hopefully you can narrow the issue down to a repairable cause and the resources

necessary to perform the repair aren't more than the replacement cost of said unit.

Thanks for the updated report.

Good luck & happy computing! 🙂

K Shaffer

Level 7

34,996 points

Jul 9, 2014 12:32 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

There is a possibility the DC-in Board you had replaced, may have been

affected to an adverse degree by that power outage &/or surge event...

Also, the other detail may still affect the computer, in that a low-volt/old

PRAM battery may still seem present but not adequately power the

chip that retains all kinds of details in its memory, when functioning, to

include battery and power controls among others.

So, if the DC-in Board were checked at a professional level (some may

replace it as a method of troubleshooting) and the PRAM battery also,

this may be one way to determine if the logic board has been fried.

The next step could be the power outage/surge killed it.

I noticed the other thread & know there are several PowerBook G4 (G3)

of the earlier era (with small display & small PPC cpu) that can use an

iBook G4 (G3 dualUSB) power supply successfully. I have a PB 12" G4

with generic power supply same as iBook G4, it works good enough to

discover the PowerBook G4 12" I have needs further repair to function.

So the power supply itself that you have likely is not the issue. For that

old of an Apple portable, it need not use a 65W adapter, either. Your

Pismo shipped with a 45w. adapter.

As per http://mactracker.ca database:

System Battery 50 Wh Lithium Ion (M7318)

Battery Life Up to 5 hours with one battery and up to 10 hours with two

batteries, depending on configuration and usage

Backup Battery 922-3829

Power Adapter 45 W AC (M7332)

Maximum Continuous Power 45 W

Sorry this has dragged on so long; and am concerned that if the DC-in

Board, or the PRAM battery are not at fault (troubleshoot by replace)

that the Logic Board may be a reason for the charging issues, then.

I'd inquire of an expert where these get restored, who can test it all.

Previous good experience with wegenermedia would tend to taint

my reference of them, but other service providers may suffice.

Good luck, in any event! 😐

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Jul 9, 2014 6:32 PM in response to K Shaffer

K Shaffer wrote:

There is a possibility the DC-in Board you had replaced, may have been

affected to an adverse degree by that power outage &/or surge event...

Also, the other detail may still affect the computer, in that a low-volt/old

PRAM battery may still seem present but not adequately power the

chip that retains all kinds of details in its memory, when functioning, to

include battery and power controls among others.

So, if the DC-in Board were checked at a professional level (some may

replace it as a method of troubleshooting) and the PRAM battery also,

this may be one way to determine if the logic board has been fried.

The next step could be the power outage/surge killed it.

===SNIP====

RE:

DC-in board.... Wouldn't there be more symptoms?

PRAM battery... pretty sure was part of recondition. have had PRAM battery go dead before. No joy big time.

If after action plan described still joyless, will have the AASP that did original recondition have a look. seemed very competent.

As Doctor Frankenfurter sez, I am "quivering with antici . . . . . . . pation." waiting for the trickle charge to complete. (75% !! )

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Jul 10, 2014 6:58 AM in response to ChitlinsCC

To a brody

you said (copied from email notice):

I have notified the moderators to attempt to move the post. The last forum design really just had it as a keyword section of the Powerbook forum, so it technically wouldn't be moved unless someone filtered by keyword within the Powerbook forum. Usually when you go into the Powerbook forum it shows all keywords at once. Not sure if it will help to tag the keyword since the Powerbook forum is not visited that often to begin with.

mission accomplished. Thank you.

I deduced all you say yesterday. Having never visited PowerBook by navigating links (I just OPed from the Wecome page), I was led down the primrose path by turingtest2 's much needed Site map of Communities and Categories in which it appeared to me that what he rightly called catagories were sub-forums - since PowerBook is one, I figured Power and Battery was a sub-forum too. You can look for yourself to see why I wrongly deduced this.

But all now is right with the world (except my battery).

My sojourn continues...

Thanx agin!!

CCC

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Jul 13, 2014 2:29 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

UPDATE

Well, 100% charge has finally been reached.

Action Plan:

At the end of the day, I will unplug and drain the battery to follow battery optimize instructions
Reset PMU
Start over

I am not optimistic 😢

CCC

=============

@117:00

😁

K Shaffer

Level 7

34,996 points

Jul 13, 2014 2:48 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

The problem could be due to the power outage and/or any surge events that may

have (of if present, likely did have) caused damages to the logic board, the DC-in

Board, or other components associated with the Pismo and the ability to charge.

So home testing of this trickle-charge effect only puts you more days away from

the initial professional repair experience of first repairs done, and subsequent

follow-up to diagnose and estimate costs of a new repair; even if a re-tread path.

The advice I gave is on the basis of a reality of seeing some of the previous repair

efforts erased through the power interruption, along with possible power surge event.

Since you did not say or indicate you have an in-line backup power isolation unit

such as a power conditioning back up power supply (UPS) that switches to its own

battery backup, and absorbs/redirects excess grid power to the ground, etc so as

to protect electronics from the mains when or if excess or insufficient power could

affect the computer faster than any other switching could take place.

A crude form of surge protection, is to rely on the power adapter itself; it can switch

from approximately 100 volts to 240 volts alternating current, eventually. But not in

a flash, such as storm-force winds causing electrical wires on power poles to whip

together and triple hit your house with a surge in half a second. Amperes and watts,

volts and other electrical values change suddenly and can result in bad effects.

Anyway, I think that if a qualified Apple authorized (vintage experienced) service

provider were to look into this situation with your Pismo in hand, knowing it may

have seen a power surge, the troubleshooting could take on a slightly different tack.

Good luck in your continued efforts and may your Pismo bless you! 🙂

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Jul 13, 2014 3:27 PM in response to K Shaffer

I have and continue to view your advice as sage.

Cost benefit analysis = keep using Pismo as is.

only use battery very short periods
- walk in the other room to show someone something
- power outage long enough to shut down properly
not even worth replacing the battery much less looking at other expense since everything seems fine except for the battery

I'll post anything interesting, but I'm thinkin this may the last roundup for this issue

Thanx for your Pismo blessing

CCC

-- A "practical joker" deserves applause for his wit according to its quality. Bastinado is about right. for exceptional wit one might grant keelhauling. But staking him out on an ant hill should be reserved for the very wittiest.

EDIT

PS: have a look at this freaky occurrence VERY Strange occurrance. Not quite a catastrophe. over in 10.4 Tiger forum. Had it not happened to me, I am not sure I would have believed it.

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Jul 13, 2014 7:29 PM in response to K Shaffer

I know I may have indicated despair in my last post... but its really not my nature. To wit, I had my trusty multimeter out to test my Mom's hearing aid batteries, so I thought "Why can't I test the M7318 with this puppy?" Well guessing at 6 terminals to touch is not good odds and systematically harder to do than guessing a PIN code.

Any idea which 2 of the six are + and - ?

Also, being Google-icious, I tried [ "M7318 battery" test with voltmeter ] and got this as #2

Lombard Battery Charging - PPC PowerBook & iBook - 68kMLA Forums

This is not exactly the symptoms I have, but they talk about an interesting method of "quick draining a Lombard class battery in seconds" (sound familiar? - exactly the behavior of my battery) -- They also talk about a fully charged battery only running a Lombard for a few seconds before blackout - also exactly my experience. They do not assume the battery is dead, only how to test it. They must all be electronics folks with workbenches and the like.

They speak of the battery's "Power Manager" (same thing I was calling 'microprocessor'?) being reset by shorting out the + and - terminals with a wire ! ! claiming no harm will come of this act !!

At your leisure, will you have a look at this thread and put it in layman's terms what they are talking about? Also at your leisure, maybe you could Google the above search term and see if you could recommend any of them that you think I might try and make sense of.

Thanx agin -- remember - at your leisure - there is no hurry AT ALL.

CCC

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Aug 28, 2014 3:33 PM in response to K Shaffer

howdy K - been a while

I am gonna call this one a done deal. My conclusions may not be totally accurate, but methinks we have pretty much proven that it is almost surely the battery itself that has succumbed. reasoning goes like this:

PMU and Battery resets are done = multiple times
Battery charge cycle is funky to be kind
Battery will eventually charge fully to 99-100% (99.967% to be precise)
Here's the kicker - It takes only about 7 minutes to drain the battery to the point where the computer shuts off from lack of battery power

IF I can count on 7 minutes to safely Save Stuff and Shut Down properly in case of AC Power loss, I am gonna consider the battery is useful enough to me. I have difficulty recalling ever using the doggone Pismo as a true portable anyway.

Hope this finds you & yours well

CCC

EDITaddedAndEDITedAgain

BTW, I am gonna go thru here and points you for helpies (mis-clicked on myself!) and finally an answerie for you.

K Shaffer

Level 7

34,996 points

Aug 28, 2014 4:03 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

The link to details about how some had briefly shorted the battery terminals

to get the microchip processor in the battery to re-set, were sketchy; so for

the most part among those contributor's stories, I'm not sure about the claim

of success given the number of failed attempts. Some other variable may be

in play, since other parts could be bad or not in the other devices so tested.

A way to have a battery backup, is to plug the power adapter into a UPS

and get one with at least an hour runtime. Of course it's not portable, tho.

Thanks for the green stamp, btw... 🙂

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Aug 28, 2014 4:27 PM in response to K Shaffer

IMHO, 'sketchy' is being too kind... I was not about to go makin a circuit across random terminals! The 'reset' to which I referred was the simple - unplug and drain it til the computer shutoff.

My decision was partly influenced by the continued hassle and, most of all, I am not gonna throw any more $$ at the Pismo - new battery or UPS. I will repeat - 7 minutes is enough to safely survive an outage - purpose served 😁

Greenie is my pleasure, sir! I have learned a bit of the workhD looks as if one can only award TWO (2) helpies and the elpie link goes bye-bye on the rest of posts. = My '... something new every day' for today!

cya

CCC

K Shaffer

Level 7

34,996 points

Aug 28, 2014 4:37 PM in response to ChitlinsCC

The scoring mechanism could take a few clues

from the Wizard of Oz, in that the awards could

be One: Lion. Two: Tigers. Three: Bare. (oh my!)

Elimination by evaporation. Like battery juice 😝

ChitlinsCC Author

Level 7

20,924 points

Aug 28, 2014 4:46 PM in response to K Shaffer

Funny you should use that analogy... I have said on many occasion "... curioser and curioser" and "another trip down the rabbit hole" - I found this today and gave it an AppleTwist!

Pismo new battery flashing light then dead