What happened to Save As?

Now that is funny, it is YOU he is talking about. You are the Little Snitch App. I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Maybe you should learn a bit more English next time Yvan...

While you and Apple might win this battle, what you don't understand is that you have already lost the war. Any company that goes into battle with its customers is lost.

I am now one of the many who is looking for an alternative solution to Apple. I came to Apple to get away from this behavior at Microsoft. Their shares have been static for years as more and more people chose Apple. Now it is Apple who will suffer as people will look for an alternative.

While the dictators have their time in the sun, their days are numbered, as people will continue to choose choice over dictatorship. Welcome to Yvan's 3rd Reicht. The end is near.

(I defer to Godwin's Law in that last paragraph...)

Thanks. While this particular forum has degenerated into a laugh the issues are real and people are dealing with them. I am waiting for Mountain Lion and if it fails to fix this then I will leave Apple. These things really matter.

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

Little Snitch is not in the list of applications matching OS X Lion rules, more, as far as I know, it's not available thru the MAS.

I am sorry Yvan I hoped you'd appreciate a little humour in this discussion. I was indeed directing my allusion at you.

I wanted to say, I don't understand your self-appointed sheriff approach to "rules".

When someone "breaks" Apple rules in your understanding, you report them. When Apple gives you a sign to be less vocal in this tread, you just keep plowing on.

When you make workarounds to make life with the new saving paradigm easier, it is ok.

When software companies do that, it is wrong. Do you see the pattern?

Versioning/Autosave feature—as useful as it could possibly be—is very fresh and it was implemented badly in many Apple users' opinion.

Apple often get their software and hardware right the first time but understandably had its lemons and misfires even in recent history. I could mention Mobile Me, Apple TV, Ping or FCP X fiascos. In some cases, Apple fixed them in future iterations. This is what I and many others contributing to this thread hope will happen here. This is why we are providing feedback and saying "this isn't working".

In current implementation of Versioning/Autosave files are easily disjointed with their versions if they're moved, sent, copied, opened on a network/portable drive or shared in other way. Even sharing with another computer via iCloud detaches it from saved versions.

There is too little control over when (and if at all) a version is created.

Autosave is not suited for graphic applications. Autosaving a JPG file will add lossy compression to a file initially saved with lossy compression.

Autosave is not suited for other types of applications, e.g. code editors, especially that those work with both local and remote files and make use of specialized version control software.

The list of holes in the implementation is long and was repeated here many times. There are more and more signs that Apple might want to reconsider the feature. If creators of Pixelmator, an app which has won Apple Design Award decides to add a secret switch, this is very telling.

As it turns out, software companies are not eager to implement Autosave/Versioning (or Sandboxing). Apple not only extended the deadline for those features, they also added a category in the App Store which would have not made sense had developers rushed to implement all the new features. Virtually all apps would belong in this category if all those features were good.

Seeing that many applications don't and will not use Autosave/Versions (note Adobe with their now accessibly-priced Creative Suite, also some AppStore apps that don't make the "enhanced" list), this created a situation where user can never be sure how each application on their computer saves files.

It is, simply put, an UX mess and it looks like it will stay a mess for a long time to come. I am sure they are aware of this at Apple and are looking for a good solution.

I am actually curious to see what Apple's decision on Pixelmator is if you have indeed reported it. I must say I would be happy enough if Apple provided a system-wide Terminal switch like Pixelmator's. This would allow to bring some consistency, i.e. regular users would all get the Autosave/Lock/Duplicate behaviour, power users would get the "normal" way. I predict this would convince developers to finally implement Autosave.

It has always been like that: regular users just go by Apple's defaults while others can opt to change them. I, for instance, don't use Time Machine and opt for daily differential SuperDuper! backups on my Apple Time Capsule.

To give you an actual work around for using Pages on Lion, if you install Pages over a clean install of Lion and you don't upgrade the iWorks software in your "Software Updates" then it runs as it used to on Leopard.

Once you have updated iWorks you can't uninstall it and reinstall it as the original version. It gives you an error. I had to reinstall Lion, install iWorks then every update I have to deselect "iWorks 09 Update". Still this does work.

I still have Snow Leopard and I am holding off on Lion for now (mainly due to Save As, Versioning, AutoSave).

But, silly me, I installed the iWorks update (I know the Lion features don't work, I just let the machine update!).

So, I suppose I will have to somehow uninstall iWorks completely before upgrading to Lion (IF Save As, Versioning, AutoSave has changed!)/

So, I suppose I will have to somehow uninstall iWorks completely before upgrading to Lion (IF Save As, Versioning, AutoSave has changed!)

Yes, you will have to. Since you're in SL, it still behaves with Save As, even though it's the latest version. As soon as you install Lion, that option will be gone and replaced with Duplicate, with Autosave/Versions activated.

raftr wrote:

I wanted to say, I don't understand your self-appointed sheriff approach to "rules".

When someone "breaks" Apple rules in your understanding, you report them. When Apple gives you a sign to be less vocal in this tread, you just keep plowing on.

When you make workarounds to make life with the new saving paradigm easier, it is ok.

When software companies do that, it is wrong. Do you see the pattern?

(1) If Apple want to remove my messages, they are free to do that.

(2) When I deliver a workaround, I don't ask to be include in the list promoting applications matching Lion rules and there is no money involved in what I post in forums.

At this time, GraphicConvert and PixelMator are allowed to sell thru the MAS and I have no problem with that.

When a company present an application matching the rules to be in the list then deliver a feature breaking these rules, it's just robbery. The victims are developers whose apps really match the rules.

When we play a game we must apply the rules.

What would you say if during a match of football, some players were taking the ball with their hands ?

I guess that you would shout « Hi, you aren't supposed to play rugby ».

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 28 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

When a company present an application matching the rules to be in the list then deliver a feature breaking these rules, it's just robbery. The victims are developers whose apps really match the rules.

When we play a game we must apply the rules.

What would you say if during a match of football, some players were taking the ball with their hands ?

I would say that it is the referee's job to call a foul on the offending player.

Notice, I said "the referee" — that is, the official who is being paid by the league to do a very specific job.

Yvan, please answer these questions very specifically:

1) If you were in the stands at a match, and witnessed such an infraction, would you personally run out onto the field waving your arms? Or would you let the referee do his job?

2) Where did you get the idea it was YOUR job to police the Mac App Store? Are you an Apple employee?

3) Is it part of your job description to engage in the activities you have in reporting offending Mac apps? Is there somehow a shortage of Apple employees available to perform this task?

If you dodge or ignore these questions, as you have ignored so many other questions in the past that make you uncomfortable, we will have yet another indication of what you are made of.

The thing is, from user standpoint, those apps do provide all the new Lion features. More than that, they provide additional options.

Even Apple initially decided Graphic Converter was enhanced for Lion. You think they didn't notice the "Save As…"?

I suppose a possible scenario was that they decided it was doing no harm and they needed good apps to fill the short list. When you wrote, they removed it to avoid further discussion and just called it a day.

Graphic Converter developers put just as much work as others did into implementing Lion features in their app. They even went the extra mile and provided additional features. Your messing with this was in no way "fair". Honestly, I would understand if you had an app on the list and wanted to get rid of competition. Still wrong, but it would make some sense.

To use your soccer parallel… When there is an obvious foul and the referee decides the game should go on, half of the stadium is roaring. Here, you are alone, running onto the field as DChord568 said. Everyone else wants to see the game continue, especially that the rules of the game are very fresh and it's only natural that they will evolve.

Funny enough, the app now being off the list means there are less apps that comply and another sign for Apple that the rules aren't realistic. This, gets us closer to Apple reviewing their stance. I guess we owe you thanks 🙂

In football and all other sports the rules are made by the participants, the players and management..... not by the maker of the football, boots or the field..... even the referees are guided by the rules made by the community...

finally all rule changes are agreed to by everyone even when technology changes the game such as goal line technology.

In this case the game was changed without any warning or consultation with the players and the people who pay the bills.... if the players start to dive, or touch the ball the rules are in place... when the game (all particpants want to change the way we play all participants must vote and the majority rules)

The makers of fields, boots etc make improvements all the time and they all must be agreed to by the players etc.

I know this is a different game but some consultation on major changes could have been discussed.

We do have an option. and that is not to use those apps that we do not like. I will still use my Mac for many other reasons but I will change the apps I use and instead of apples apps I will go to alternate suppliers not on the accepted list.

I do love pages and numbers and hope apple will come to their senses and offer and option

cheers elo

Yvan, I would suggest you get out your French/English dictionary and look for the French equivalent of "dodge," in the sense that means completely avoiding any semblence of real answers to questions.

Thank you very much for our second laugh of the day at your expense. Tell us, have you managed to get all the egg off your face yet for having the "little snitch" allusion sail right over your head?

I encourage you to make another of your patented arrogant replies to this so you can go three-for-three in the laughter sweepstakes.

I apologize but my answers are real ones.

I never enter a stadium so I don't know how I would behave in such an area which I really dislike.

I get my ideas from my brain, not from discussions forums.

I decide by myself and don't ask someone before making my choice, exactly as I did late Sunday and as I will do on 2012/05/06 to vote.

I kicked US citizens out of my shop when I worked as a potter but I never laughed to their face when they didn't understood a French gimmick.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) samedi 28 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

You are such fool to propose that example of a football "rule"/ More apropos to this discussion, what would you say to a football match in which the referree commands all players to kick with their left foot?

Some players who were accustomed since early childhood to kick with their right foot will reasonable object and say that this change forces them to suffer a performance decrease in their playing and scoring ability. They would say it unreasonably favors those who like to kick with their left foot. Soon, you would hear players complaining that they should be allowed the CHOICE of which foot to kick the ball with.

And the left footed kickers would have no disadvantage if they desire to continue kicking with their left foot.

My only hope is that someone would kick the ball into your face … with either foot… and teach you a lesson about the consequences of being so dictatorial, rude, and disrespectful to the opinions of others.

I sincerely hope this translates well into your native language: this quote is attributed to Mark Twain among many others, so I am not sure who the original quotation is attributed to, but you could learn a lesson from this:

"It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt."

Raftr, thanks for trying, this is a great post. Those of us who understand appreciate it. And the monkeys, they don't understand and they never will. Better to feed them bananas than logic and reason. Be at peace with that. I just went and got Pixelmator before it gets banned. Thanks for the advice. It looks like a really amazing program.