What happened to Save As?

Steve Maximus wrote:

This is a forum for people who have Lion and want to solve issues. If the solution to an issue on Lion is to not use Lion, then there would be no forum here to solve issues in using Lion. So that is never a solution to post here.

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Hi Steve,

I generally agree with you, but not completely. Sometimes (like in this 3d) people ask for getting back a feature (Save As). IMHO the solution is to avoid Lion (for now) or those apps forcing to use autosave.

Then, as the discussion goes on one topic calls another and we may digress (except somebody, who continues to repeat the same things like a parrot 😁). I did digress, writing about cvs abd other stuff. For sure some people did not appreciate my comments. Hpefully some others found them useful.

Have a nice day.

S.

Here is another example of a real world use of SAVE AS that is defeated by the new Versions/Auto Save in Lion.

I've got a document I wrote in Pages, let's say a month ago. Today, I am making a new document and I want to pick up an object, let's say a photo, that was inserted in the old Pages document and use it in the new one. Sure, I could use Choose ... to re-insert the same photo, but maybe I don't know where it is, or maybe it's a time saved to copy the one from the other Pages document which already has some other attributes like a frame, a mask, a shadow, a text wrap and it's faster to retain those from a previous document than re-create them anew.

Now, here's the reason why I prefer using Cut instead of Copy when I have the older document open. When you use Copy, there is no immediate certainty that you have put on your clipboard what you intend to copy. Yes, of course you could open the Show Clipboard window, but notice that I used the word "immediate". When you cut the object, you can see what you've removed and the point here is that, for the last 28 years, I have known that all I have to do when I close the original document is decline the SAVE option and it will be untouched by the CUT command I just used. I do this with Illustrator files all the time, probably 50 times a day.

So the problem with Lion's new auto-saving is that my old document is now "updated" in a way I did not want. I did not want a new version of it, and I don't need a new version of it. I only wanted the old document open momentarily so that I could CUT something from it and close it without saving it.

Now, before the Lion defenders attack me for using CUT instead of COPY, I just want to repeat once more that I used the word "immediate". If you copy the object instead of cutting it, you have to wait until after the succesive PASTE command to know if you've grabbed everything you intended - not too much and not too little. If your windows are too large to fit side by side, you have to toggle back and forth to verify this.

The cut command, followed by a Close Without Saving is ideal in such a situation. In Lion, however, you end up with an unwanted new version of your old document with the object removed ... unless of course you execute another now-necessary command to Revert it.

Good example, Dennis. This reinforces the point we've been making all along with regard to the new AutoSave/Versions paradigm:

These are OUR documents. It should be entirely OUR decision what we do with them...OUR choice as to whether we save them following a change or not.

Isn't it ironic that Yvan has made such a repeated point of saying that no one is his master — and yet he so readily cedes complete control over what happens to his documents to the faceless Apple? Seems more than a little contradictory to me.

Excellent example, Dennis. It all comes back to two issues: 1. freedom to order your workflow in a way that fits your needs ; 2. control over what gets saved when and how.

And in addition to the cut example you mention, I have often gotten involved with complex documents which are being modified with a lot of trial and error and experimentation. As DChord points out, in those cases, only I can know when a document needs saving or when a version needs to be made. This is why I've never chosen the option of autosave in apps that provided it.

I'm retired now and although I I am still using Pages and Numbers on a daily basis, my needs are a little less critical. But if I'd had to deal with the Save As / Autosave setup when I was working, I'd have been pulling my hair out.

DChord568 wrote:

Isn't it ironic that Yvan has made such a repeated point of saying that no one is his master — and yet he so readily cedes complete control over what happens to his documents to the faceless Apple? Seems more than a little contradictory to me.

No contradiction. I described several times the workflow allowing me to be the unique master of my documents.

If you refuse to use it, it's your problem, not mine and I guess not Apple's one.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

DChord568 wrote:

Isn't it ironic that Yvan has made such a repeated point of saying that no one is his master — and yet he so readily cedes complete control over what happens to his documents to the faceless Apple? Seems more than a little contradictory to me.

No contradiction. I described several times the workflow allowing me to be the unique master of my documents.

If you refuse to use it, it's your problem, not mine and I guess not Apple's one.

OK, I'll amend what I wrote. You have wrested control of your documents from Apple by brute force...concocting lengthy and complex Applescripts to get around their "my way or the highway" paradigm and to enable a workflow that was at one time readily available to all.

That's fine for you, because you enjoy crafting lengthy and complex Applescripts. But what about the other 99 percent of Mac users who lack the skills to do this, or don't enjoy this process as you do?

The Mac was supposed to be "the computer for the rest of us," remember? The kind of onerous machinations necessary in the Windows world to get any kind of productive work done was something we didn't have to worry about. Remember?

You've once again demonstrated your view of the rest of the world, which is: "*I* don't have a problem, so therefore no one else should ever have a problem either."

And once again, for the thousandth time, your arrogance is on full display.

I wasn't pointing the scripts but my systematic use of templates.

Given that, Lion changed absolutely nothing to my workflow.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

KOENIG Yvan wrote:

I wasn't pointing the scripts but my systematic use of templates.

LOL!!!

As I and others here have repeatedly pointed out to you (and you have repeatedly ignored), templates are of no use whatsoever when one needs to base a new document on an existing unique document. They are only useful for documents that always start out with exactly the same content.

Templates do absolutely nothing to cure the loss of Save As when it comes to one of its most frequent uses...that is, preserving a document with unique content in its present state while basing a new document on the state to which it has been taken and making further changes.

Yvan...get a clue, will you?

P.S. I note that, as has been your habit from the beginning, you have ignored the bulk of my post...you know, the parts of it you have no answer for. Those parts, and the concerns they speak to, are still there, Yvan...they haven't magically disappeared because you've chosen to pretend they don't exist.

If I understand well what you wrote, you store your documents as azerty.pages, qsdf.numbers …

May you understand what I wrote many times ?

I don't keep « standard » iWork documents.

On my machine there is no such file. I use Save as Template but don't store the documents in the Templates folder which would become too heavily filled. I store them in the folders of my choice as azerty.template or qsdf.nmbtemplate so I may use every ones as a starting point.

For the other points, I can't tell you why Apple make this or that because I'm not working in Apple's offices and, if I was I wouldn't be allowed to do.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

DChord, Yvan is never going to change his ways. Clearly, all the persuasive arguments made by those of us who agree on the need for a Save As command make no impression on him, and only exacerbate the problem by fueling his passion to prove that we're wrong, and he's right.

The only effective solution, many pages back, is the suggestion to just ignore him. I know I have broken that rule myself, because it is sometime tempting to counter his offensive points with logic and reasonableness. But it doesn't work.

Just take the approach of: "You win" and maybe he will be less inclined to burden us with any more of his self-righteousness than necessary. We might pray for zero, but I will settle for whatever is the minimum necessary.

He's right, that's all there is to it. We're wrong and he's right. I get it.

Dennis Burnham wrote:

DChord, Yvan is never going to change his ways. Clearly, all the persuasive arguments made by those of us who agree on the need for a Save As command make no impression on him, and only exacerbate the problem by fueling his passion to prove that we're wrong, and he's right.

The only effective solution, many pages back, is the suggestion to just ignore him. I know I have broken that rule myself, because it is sometime tempting to counter his offensive points with logic and reasonableness. But it doesn't work.

Just take the approach of: "You win" and maybe he will be less inclined to burden us with any more of his self-righteousness than necessary. We might pray for zero, but I will settle for whatever is the minimum necessary.

He's right, that's all there is to it. We're wrong and he's right. I get it.

I have made that vow in the past to ignore him, too...but like you, I have found it difficult to resist when he puts particularly egregious examples of his ignorance on display.

As you can see by his last post, he's doing more of the same. As I noted, for Yvan it comes down to "*I* don't have this problem in my workflow...anyone else who has a problem isn't me...so their problems are non-existent. Apple is always right...end of story."

I'll try to do better in the future, but I make no guarantees. I needn't say anything about his latest post, as it pretty well speaks for itself in revealing his continuing ingnorance.

I wonder how Google Translate would handle "obtuse"?

Regarding templates, DChord, I find it interesting that Save as Template... does not have a keyboard equivalent, which means that if I were to save every document as a template file, I could not conclude my work and arrive at the PutFile dialog box by typing command-W or command-S.

I no longer have access to the pre-Lion edition of iWork to see if command-shift-S or some other keystroke combination invoked Save As, the way it does in most Adobe applications.

For anyone tempted to adopt the Save as Template idea for all their new documents going forward, it is worth noting that it does not save any steps or time. Moreover, for someone like myself who would like to use the new Versions method occasionally, but not always, it would defeat that because those of us who are not clairvoyant may not know at the time the document is first saved with a name what possible future use may be made of it.

As clever as the template idea may be, it is not as customer-friendly as the desire we have expressed for CHOICE.

Hi:

thinking about the issue of pages and numbers once again.

my version of it worked as I wanted in 10.6.8 the same version then changed in 10.7.3

therefore there is a key to turn it on and off.

think pixelmator, neooffice, graphic converter

maybe the same key instruction in terminal works...??

I am having problems with it changing even pixelmator who do not know why? Yet?(they are very helpful)

think it is me

anyone else out there willing to try it...???

cheers elo laugesen

elol wrote:

maybe the same key instruction in terminal works...??

I am having problems with it changing even pixelmator who do not know why? Yet?(they are very helpful)

think it is me

anyone else out there willing to try it...???

No luck. Such a feature require the availability of code able to execute it in the applications.

The tip doesn't apply to Apple applications deprieved of Save As.

In iWork applications, it's the system's version which is used as a switch.

Yvan KOENIG (VALLAURIS, France) lundi 30 avril 2012

iMac 21”5, i7, 2.8 GHz, 12 Gbytes, 1 Tbytes, mac OS X 10.6.8 and 10.7.3

My Box account is : http://www.box.com/s/00qnssoyeq2xvc22ra4k

Yvan:

you are an Artist and I live with one(my wife and partner) and I have owned several galleries in canada and england.

I have looked at your web sites, past images of pots etc. you are very creative, tried new things in fact you have pushed the boundaries.... you made a living of it(which is more than most artist do)

do not tell me you do not push/play with the software on your computer with the access you have to the new world of apple.??? I Know there are rules. but no potter ever followed the set standard rules for firing a kiln or using the same glaze as every one else. likewise no coffee mug ever looks the same???

Help us.... then you and all us of go back to apple and say... what they dream up is not always perfect?

is that not what apple really want from Beta Testers? I and my staff in my past had to do the following

1. Check that beta software works according to the book and our specs?

2. Is it useable... can you live with it? can the other users live with it? Is it good for the company(apple)

cheers elo