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Alsoft's Disk Warrior still can't rebuild APFS disks.

Alsoft's Disk Warrior still can't rebuild APFS disks. I'm running the latest version of Sierra. I would have gone up to High Sierra if Disk Warrior had a version out that could rebuild the catalog on my inner HD, which is an SSD. So, as an SSD, I believe it would be automatically converted to an APFS disk if I did upgrade.

Why am I asking about this here at Apple instead of over at Alsoft? Well, I have written to Alsoft twice. All I get back is a reference to a web page https://www.alsoft.com/DiskWarrior/highsierraapfs.html

which says that their latest version can recognize but not repair APFS disks.

Disk Warrior has saved me a couple of times in the past, so I've been holding out for a new version.

I'm asking about this here because I'm wondering what others think or know about this situation. Is there some conflict between Apple and Alsoft? Why hasn't there been a version of Disk Warrior that can repair APFS disks?

Posted on Jul 19, 2018 2:15 PM

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Posted on Jul 20, 2018 11:58 AM

All I get back is a reference to a web page https://www.alsoft.com/DiskWarrior/highsierraapfs.html

which says that their latest version can recognize but not repair APFS disks.

Well you've heard it straight from the horse's mouth. They know more than we do so we can't answer why they don't have a compatible version. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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Jul 20, 2018 11:58 AM in response to Stephen Souza1

All I get back is a reference to a web page https://www.alsoft.com/DiskWarrior/highsierraapfs.html

which says that their latest version can recognize but not repair APFS disks.

Well you've heard it straight from the horse's mouth. They know more than we do so we can't answer why they don't have a compatible version. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

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Jul 25, 2018 12:56 PM in response to Stephen Souza1

We have the same situation here. What Alsoft states is:


"The next major release of DiskWarrior will include the ability to rebuild APFS disks. Our developers are waiting for Apple to release the final APFS format documentation in order to safely rebuild APFS disks".


That was almost a year ago (since 28th September 2017). I wonder why Apple does not release full APFS specifications, even if that is a work in progress. That would be better than nothing.


Additionally, we are also waiting for Apple Time Machine 2 (or whatever called) with full APFS support, including snapshots. What is Apple waiting for?


I do not mind waiting, but I do mind the lack of information from Apple.

Jul 25, 2018 6:10 AM in response to ApMaX

If you go back ten years, Alsoft was blaming Apple for the delay in releasing the boot specifications for a version of OS X that they needed to boot from the Alsoft DVD on newer Macs. Last year, it was Hurricane Harvey that impacted Alsoft's (they are just north of Houston) delivery schedule of APFS support. Now it is a purported delay in Apple's release of the APFS specifications.


Just because a vendor runs home to “it's Apple's fault,” does not make it entirely the truth, according to the gospel of 1's and 0's.


I think Alsoft is suffering from aiming paralysis. Apple will always be tweaking refinements into APFS, but the filesystem has been available to developers for two or more years now.

Jul 25, 2018 9:21 AM in response to VikingOSX

VikingOSX, all three major developers of Mac utilities to rebuild disk directory indicate that the lack of such essential feature for APFS in their utilities is becasue Apple has not yet released APFS specifications:


- Alsoft - DiskWarrior.

- Micromat - TechTool Pro.

- Prosoft Engineering - Drive Genius.


Micromat has done some progress on such direction, because they have access to part of such APFS specifications, since they have a long history of business relationship with Apple to develop TechTool Deluxe (for AppleCare customers only).


The current situation of lack of information about APFS from Apple is described here:


APFS technical documentation

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/315367/apfs-technical-documentation


So much, that APFS has been reverse-engineered and published in prestigious scientific journal:


------

Digital Investigation - Volume 22, September 2017, Pages 107-132

Decoding the APFS file system

Kurt H.HansenFergusToolan

Abstract

File systems have always played a vital role in digital forensics and during the past 30–40 years many of these have been developed to suit different needs. Some file systems are more tightly connected to a specific Operating System (OS). For instance HFS and HFS+ have been the file systems of choice in Apple devices for over 30 years.

Much has happened in the evolution of storage technologies, the capacity and speed of devices has increased and Solid State Drives (SSD) are replacing traditional drives. All of these present challenges for file systems. APFS is a file system developed from first principles and will, in 2017, become the new file system for Apple devices.

To date there is no available technical information about APFS and this is the motivation for this article.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.diin.2017.07.003

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1742287617301408

------


As they state, "To date there is no available technical information about APFS and this is the motivation for this article". So, here we are. Hopefully, Apple will release such information soon. Otherwise, we will not update from Sierra to newer macOS versions, since that is a deal breaker issue. DiskWarrior has saved our disks many times, including prevention and Time Machine catastrophic corruptions. A real jewel.

Jul 25, 2018 1:49 PM in response to ApMaX

I used to run DW in the "old" days; at that point, it wouldn't even reliably be able to boot back into the internal drive - the only way to use it was to have it on an external bootable clone and run it from there.


As the Mac OS has gotten updated and refined, I have found less and less occasions to actually use it and had actually forgotten that I still have it installed. Haven't had the need to run it in at least 2 years. I'd also question the necessity of using it on an SSD which, if it has decent garbage collection, should not be necessary (in my humble opinion).


In other words, I see no reason to run it.

Jul 25, 2018 2:07 PM in response to babowa

This is an interesting response. A different point of view. Are you saying that an SSD with High Sierra on it could be successfully repaired by Apple's own Disk Utility without the need of DiskWarrior?

By "if it has decent garbage collection," do you mean, again, that High Sierra is sophisticated enough to take care of the troubles DiskWarrior previously could fix?

I normally run the current version of DW (5) on a Flash Drive, booted from the Flash Drive, in order to work on the SSD. I do, however, also have external backup disks, which are regular HDs, and I either use the Flash Drive, or I run DW from the SSD.

DW recommends rebuilding the disk catalog monthly, which I've been dong to the SSD. Do you think this is not needed?

What about ApMaX's comment above: "Additionally, we are also waiting for Apple Time Machine 2 (or whatever called) with full APFS support, including snapshots. What is Apple waiting for?" Would this be another reason to wait before upgrading?

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just wondering. I'm not tech savvy enough to know the answers to these questions. I'm trying to get more information and to understand and thus to make the best decision. I am thankful for all of the answers and opinions that have been posted. Thank you all very much.

Jul 25, 2018 5:43 PM in response to Stephen Souza1

Garbage collection takes place if you have TRIM enabled; I do not know enough about DW to say whether or not anything would be done that DW used to do. My personal opinion is that it is (or was) quite good at rebuilding a directory, but that was about it. I certainly did not use it monthly - at most maybe 2 x per year and only if/when I felt the mac was sluggish. I have not experienced anything sluggish for a very long time. But, I am also not tech savvy enough to know for sure. I've also opted out of running HS - it did a number when I tried to install it to my 2015 MBA (black screen and no response to anything) and it took me 3 days to get it to boot from one of my clones - at that point, I decided Sierra was just fine.

Jul 26, 2018 5:51 AM in response to Stephen Souza1

DW recommends rebuilding the disk catalog monthly

Why? What problems do you see appearing if you don't? I've never done any disk repair in 30+ years of using various Macs. Never noticed any problems.


Are you saying that an SSD with High Sierra on it could be successfully repaired by Apple's own Disk Utility without the need of DiskWarrior?


I have managed without need of any repair in 30+ years, whether it be Disk Utility or another product. The only drive I attempted to repair turned out to be failing--known issue with that particular Seagate drive.

Maybe I'm missing something. What symptoms should I be looking for that would indicate I need to perform any disk maintenance? I've never noticed anything obvious.

Jul 26, 2018 1:26 PM in response to Stephen Souza1

TRIM is the garbage collection process for SSDs. It is automatically enabled for Apple OEM SSDs and can be manually enabled for third party SSDs (except, it seems, the ones from OWC - I have them and they claim not to need it). You can also help the longevity of any SSD by leaving more empty space to make it easier to find places to write to as it does all read/write in blocks. If you do a search here, you'll find plenty of discussion on TRIM.


As for yours showing an arbitrary #9 out of 10 - it is surely wanting to find something to do to explain its existence..... Unless you have a major problem, I would not bother to run it.

Jul 26, 2018 2:15 PM in response to Stephen Souza1

I don't know what TRIM is.

TRIM is a way for the File System to tell the SSD that the blocks used by a just deleted file may be added to the SSD's garbage collection queue, and at the SSD's leisure, pre-cleaned so they are available for new writes.


TRIM increases the pool of available blocks the SSD can pre-clean for future writes, so that sustained writes of huge files will not need to wait for the SSD to do garbage collection in the middle of the write.

Jul 26, 2018 9:58 PM in response to Barney-15E

Rebuild directory using the current version of DiskWarrior 5.1 and you will see what we mean. Unless your disks do not have many items and you do not save/delete many items in them, chances are that you will be shocked to see what you find.


As said before, DiskWarrior has saved many disks from losing all their data, as well as preventing them to became corrupt, which in case of Time Machine has catastrophic consequences of losing all previous backups and starting backup from scratch.


Again, that happens at least and for sure if you have many items and change them often on large-capacity disks, including mechanical-rotational ones and SSD. That is our experience with thousands of them for decades, up to macOS 10.12.6 (16G1510) Sierra on HFS+ and before. We have not tested newer macOS and APFS so far as described above because the lack of DiskWarrior feature to rebuild APFS. Hopefully it will be soon available when Apple releases its specifications.

Jul 27, 2018 1:43 PM in response to ApMaX

Yes, DW has helped me and "saved" both my main HD and backup HDs. Once, using Apple's Disk Utility to try and save a disk, I got a message telling me to reformat the disk and begin again. (Can't remember the exact wording. It was something like that.) I used Disk Warrior on the disk and, after replacing the catalog with a new one, and correcting some other things, the disk was good to go again. So, it does seem to me that in some cases, DW can do things that Apple's Disk Utility can't do. Granted, this may not have been the Sierra OS. It may have been an earlier system, and I've no idea how good Apple's Disk Utility is in High Sierra, but I'm still reluctant to upgrade when DW isn't there to help with an SSD.

Jul 27, 2018 2:16 PM in response to Barney-15E

You said: "So, I'm supposed to trust what a company that wants to sell me something says it finds".


No, I have not relation to Alsoft other than using DiskWarrior on thousands of Macs over decades now. I do not know about High Sierra with APFS, but DiskWarrior is capable of fixing on HFS+ disks taht no other utility can do. In fact, Apple Disk Utility sometimes breaks even more disks with issues, whereas DiskWarrior fixes them. The best if to try DiskWarrior first.


What I said is that I bet that if you try DiskWarrior, you will see that it finds and fixes many problems on any disk, including booting ones and Time Machine ones. That is my experience.

Alsoft's Disk Warrior still can't rebuild APFS disks.

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